Let's talk about "the Spark" in TLJ.

#51
Given how little the dark side values life, and with Ren's hatred of Luke surely he would have had all troops who landed on Crait (but perhaps the ginger guy from About Time) shot to ensure the story didn't get out about Luke?

Maybe the Rebels were holo broadcasting what was happening to them on cameras from outside of the base? Kept running after they fled into the caves?
 
#52
I want IX to be a "ten years later" story where it's all force sensitives everywhere and everything is laser swords and pew pew pew and SSHHWOOM SHHWWWOOOM and stuff
Yeah man, I want this too!

Nearly everyone has now finally lost something important, met their mentor, or steeled themselves for the cause. I don’t even want a montage, just a, “Times past, things were learned, time to fuck shit up.” Like Return on the Jedi.
 
#53
I'm fine with that, but I believe the moral implications of the heroes' actions are important, expecially in a quasi-fairytale like Star Wars (that is very much about family values, fighting fascism and generally larger-than-life-heroism fueled by love).

It's not about the logistics of how it happens; it does, the movie has the right to tell you it does and how it works. My interest is in the moral implications, for Luke but also for the Resistance. How do you turn what happened on Crait (which, in short, is: the guy we've told you we were looking for to be the thing that allowed us to win the war against the FO died to save 12 people and 1 ship) into a message of hope, without lies and deception?

Hope born from deception is a good thing?


And trust me, this one thing is the most interesting aspect of TLJ for me. I kind of hate it and love it. It makes me dislike the story but it also elevates the movie's complexity, a lot.
Again, I just don’t think your take on this as some sort of celebration of fake news is accurate. Certainly not at this stage when we have absolutely no idea what the resistance will go on to tell people about that encounter. Yeah, it would be ethically questionable if in Episode IX the Rebellion launched an evening holo-news broadcast describing how Luke absorbed 5,000 blaster bolts with his bare hands and then leveled the First Order with a massive lightning shockwave or something, but I just don’t see that happening. Is it not enough to show that a Jedi master could effortlessly pull down the pants of the most formidable military organization in the galaxy? Putting aside ridiculous shit from the EU like pulling star destroyers out of the sky, Luke’s projection is arguably the most powerful display of force mastery we’ve seen in any of the movies.
 
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#55
Again, I just don’t think your take on this as some sort of celebration of fake news is accurate. Certainly not at this stage when we have absolutely no idea what the resistance will go on to tell people about that encounter. Yeah, it would be ethically questionable if in Episode IX the Rebellion launched an evening holo-news broadcast describing how Luke absorbed 5,000 blaster bolts with his bare hands and then leveled the First Order with a massive lightning shockwave or something, but I just don’t see that happening. Is it not enough to show that a Jedi master could effortlessly pull down the pants of the most formidable military organization in the galaxy?

You need to consider that a good half of the galaxy's population was already alive when Jedis acted as the galaxy's police force. A lot of them grew up with tales of Mace Windu actually absorbing blasts and leveling armies of drones bare handed. Is Luke Skywalker projecting a glorified hologram of himself and dying in the process such a grand achievement?

Besides, how significant is this "pulling down the pants"? I mean, once again, in a matter of 2 days the Republic's entire solar system was annihilated, the most important FO base and superweapon was destroyed, the entire Resistance fleet was disintegrated, half of the FO's military was destroyed by Holdo, supreme leader Snoke was killed, a new Jedi warrior was revealed but the one thing that will change the history of the Galaxy is Luke Skywalker projecting a fake image of himself and wasting 10 minutes of the FO's time without eliminating even a single stormtrooper?

That's the spark the galaxy needed? Not Holdo destroying thousands of billions of credits of military equipment and probably killing tens of thousand of soldiers, not Rey decapitating the snake and still being alive to fight, but Luke making a man known to be a powerful idiot look like an idiot?
 
#56
You need to consider that a good half of the galaxy's population was already alive when Jedis acted as the galaxy's police force. A lot of them grew up with tales of Mace Windu actually absorbing blasts and leveling armies of drones bare handed. Is Luke Skywalker projecting a glorified hologram of himself and dying in the process such a grand achievement?

Besides, how significant is this "pulling down the pants"? I mean, once again, in a matter of 2 days the Republic's entire solar system was annihilated, the most important FO base and superweapon was destroyed, the entire Resistance fleet was disintegrated, half of the FO's military was destroyed by Holdo, supreme leader Snoke was killed, a new Jedi warrior was revealed but the one thing that will change the history of the Galaxy is Luke Skywalker projecting a fake image of himself and wasting 10 minutes of the FO's time without eliminating even a single stormtrooper?

That's the spark the galaxy needed? Not Holdo destroying thousands of billions of credits of military equipment and probably killing tens of thousand of soldiers, not Rey decapitating the snake and still being alive to fight, but Luke making a man known to be a powerful idiot look like an idiot?
Hey, Rey didn’t do jack. Kylo is the hero.
 
#57
You need to consider that a good half of the galaxy's population was already alive when Jedis acted as the galaxy's police force. A lot of them grew up with tales of Mace Windu actually absorbing blasts and leveling armies of drones bare handed. Is Luke Skywalker projecting a glorified hologram of himself and dying in the process such a grand achievement?

Besides, how significant is this "pulling down the pants"? I mean, once again, in a matter of 2 days the Republic's entire solar system was annihilated, the most important FO base and superweapon was destroyed, the entire Resistance fleet was disintegrated, half of the FO's military was destroyed by Holdo, supreme leader Snoke was killed, a new Jedi warrior was revealed but the one thing that will change the history of the Galaxy is Luke Skywalker projecting a fake image of himself and wasting 10 minutes of the FO's time without eliminating even a single stormtrooper?

That's the spark the galaxy needed? Not Holdo destroying thousands of billions of credits of military equipment and probably killing tens of thousand of soldiers, not Rey decapitating the snake and still being alive to fight, but Luke making a man known to be a powerful idiot look like an idiot?
You’re misunderstanding me. I agree that making Luke’s actions the “spark” the galaxy needed to take up arms against the First Order is ridiculous. But you’re also making the argument that doing so was tantamount to a celebration of the power of fake news, which is totally off base. What he did was cool enough to pass into legend without the rebellion needing to embellish the tale.
 
#59
You’re misunderstanding me. I agree that making Luke’s actions the “spark” the galaxy needed to take up arms against the First Order is ridiculous. But you’re also making the argument that doing so was tantamount to a celebration of the power of fake news, which is totally off base.

It becomes a celebration of fake news the moment you portray kids playing out the scene with made up toys. The truth doesn't work as a message of hope, so we need to assume the message that got out was a lie.
 
#60
I'm fine with that, but I believe the moral implications of the heroes' actions are important, expecially in a quasi-fairytale like Star Wars (that is very much about family values, fighting fascism and generally larger-than-life-heroism fueled by love).

It's not about the logistics of how it happens; it does, the movie has the right to tell you it does and how it works. My interest is in the moral implications, for Luke but also for the Resistance. How do you turn what happened on Crait (which, in short, is: the guy we've told you we were looking for to be the thing that allowed us to win the war against the FO died to save 12 people and 1 ship) into a message of hope, without lies and deception?

Hope born from deception is a good thing?

And trust me, this one thing is the most interesting aspect of TLJ for me. I kind of hate it and love it. It makes me dislike the story but it also elevates the movie's complexity, a lot.
I think you are overthinking this and many of the reasonings you've already given are based on a lot of presumptions that aren't supported by the film.

For example, you've mentioned a few times that people saw/see Luke as a figure that is going to save them. The film doesn't agree with this, considering Luke was represented as a figure that inspires hope in others to join the fight themselves, not one that encourages people to put their faith in someone else to win for them.

You brought up Holdo and claimed her actions weren't influential, but you're only basing that on a short scene at the very end not mentioning her in some capacity. The movie didn't state whether or not her actions were influential, so I don't think it's fair to presume they weren't. What it did show is that not only Luke, but also Finn & Rose influenced others by showing the same kids who saw/helped them on Canto Bight, and in particular the one kid Rose gave the Resistance ring to. I took that as symbolism that all of these individual acts of heroism, whether explicitly shown to or not, build up to inspire hope and action. I don't think it needs to be spelled out as explicitly as you're suggesting.

But I mean I don't necessarily disagree with you on the broad topic of weird moral implications in movies and how they create a bit of conflict in me as a viewer. In fact, most of Star Wars has Jedi achieving their goals by coercing others in one way or another. Sometimes it's shown as arrogance that inevitably get its comeuppance, and sometimes it's shown as not a big deal, or even necessary to save a character's friends.
 
#61
The “spark” is BS. Nobody from the Resistance saw what Luke did and I don’t buy that the “Gospel of random black figure with lightsaber” would be spread by the mentally conditioned First Order soldiers.
 
#62
I'm fine with that, but I believe the moral implications of the heroes' actions are important, expecially in a quasi-fairytale like Star Wars (that is very much about family values, fighting fascism and generally larger-than-life-heroism fueled by love).

It's not about the logistics of how it happens; it does, the movie has the right to tell you it does and how it works. My interest is in the moral implications, for Luke but also for the Resistance. How do you turn what happened on Crait (which, in short, is: the guy we've told you we were looking for to be the thing that allowed us to win the war against the FO died to save 12 people and 1 ship) into a message of hope, without lies and deception?

Hope born from deception is a good thing?


And trust me, this one thing is the most interesting aspect of TLJ for me. I kind of hate it and love it. It makes me dislike the story but it also elevates the movie's complexity, a lot.
How did Jesus convince everybody that he fed hundreds of people with one fish? That's a miracle that people still believe in to this day.

The galaxy knows Luke Skywalker was a Jedi and members of both the Resistance and First Order saw him face down a barrage of laser beams unarmed and then watched Supreme Leader Kylo Ren fail to land a single blow before he seemingly vanished and the Resistance escaped. That it was an illusion is not important, Luke rejoined the fight the only way he could and managed to give a spectral bitchslap to the entire First Order.

You're making it sound like Luke's projection was somehow cheating and dishonest, that his contribution was a sham that needs to be exposed. It was the only way he could save the Resistance after marooning himself on the island. The projection saved the Resistance and made a fool of Kylo Ren. Nothing else matters.
 
#63
It becomes a celebration of fake news the moment you portray kids playing out the scene with made up toys. The truth doesn't work as a message of hope, so we need to assume the message that got out was a lie.
No, we don’t. You could just as easily say those kids were acting out events exactly as they transpired. The story of a good person using his abilities to protect others is an innately hopeful one, made even more so when it also reveals an implacable military juggernaut to be utterly, hilariously fallible. They can be tricked, they can be outsmarted, and they can be beaten.
 
#64
How did Jesus convince everybody that he fed hundreds of people with one fish? That's a miracle that people still believe in to this day.

The galaxy knows Luke Skywalker was a Jedi and members of both the Resistance and First Order saw him face down a barrage of laser beams unarmed and then watched Supreme Leader Kylo Ren fail to land a single blow before he seemingly vanished and the Resistance escaped. That it was an illusion is not important, Luke rejoined the fight the only way he could and managed to give a spectral bitchslap to the entire First Order.

I don't think the parallel with Jesus is particularly flattering. I'm a Christian, but if I were to believe the stories about Jesus' actions and words were fabricated and doctored in order to propagate a message beneficial to his acolytes and associates, would I have a very high opinion of him or his religion?

I mean, my entire problem with "Luke's action are a fraud, but it makes sense people would fall for it" isn't the part were people fall for it.
 
#65
No, we don’t. You could just as easily say those kids were acting out events exactly as they transpired. The story of a good person using his abilities to protect others is an innately hopeful one, made even more so when it also reveals an implacable military juggernaut to be utterly, hilariously fallible. They can be tricked, they can be outsmarted, and they can be beaten.

I guess we'll have to disagree on that. I personally don't see a realistic recount of what happened on Crait as something that would inspire people to take actions, expecially once you consider all that costed Luke's life.

If I was a slave kid who grew up hearing stories about how Luke Skywalker saved the galaxy from the Empire and how he could return to save the galaxy from the FO, I would be pretty damn depressed by knowing what happened on Crait.
 
#66
I was mostly referring to the fact that the call for aid at the end returned exactly zero responses.
Maybe the rest of the universe was just sick of the Empire/FO vs. Resistance shenanigans.

“Ugh, the resistance is calling again? Did they let another planet get blown up again? Just let it go to voicemail.”
 
#67
I don't think the parallel with Jesus is particularly flattering. I'm a Christian, but if I were to believe the stories about Jesus' actions and words were fabricated and doctored in order to propagate a message beneficial to his acolytes and associates, would I have a very high opinion of him or his religion?

I mean, my entire problem with "Luke's action are a fraud, but it makes sense people would fall for it" isn't the part were people fall for it.
I suppose I don't understand your argument. Luke used the Force to do something amazing, something that both saved the Resistance and cost him his life. It's not "fraud" when a good guy deceives the bad guys. Was it fraud when Obi-Wan used the mind trick on those stormtroopers who were looking for the droids?

I guess we'll have to disagree on that. I personally don't see a realistic recount of what happened on Crait as something that would inspire people to take actions, expecially once you consider all that costed Luke's life.

If I was a slave kid who grew up hearing stories about how Luke Skywalker saved the galaxy from the Empire and how he could return to save the galaxy from the FO, I would be pretty damn depressed by knowing what happened on Crait.
A lone hero facing down an overwhelming opposing force is one of the oldest story tropes of all time and has occurred many times in human history. A realistic account of what happened on Crait would be:

- the most famous Jedi of all time appeared from the base
- he was invulnerable to laser fire
- the Supreme Leader of the First Order could not harm him in single combat
- he vanished along with the Resistance

Sounds pretty inspiring to me.
 
#69
I don't think the parallel with Jesus is particularly flattering. I'm a Christian, but if I were to believe the stories about Jesus' actions and words were fabricated and doctored in order to propagate a message beneficial to his acolytes and associates, would I have a very high opinion of him or his religion?

I mean, my entire problem with "Luke's action are a fraud, but it makes sense people would fall for it" isn't the part were people fall for it.
But his actions weren't a fraud. He saved all of their lives and made a fool of Kylo and the First Order. Nothing about that is fake. It just shows how powerful Luke is, He doesn't even need to be on the planet to stop you.
 
#70
I think the entire spreading of the news not making much sense is one of the things I'm willing to forgive "because it's a movie".

Yes, it doesn't make much sense that the dozen people on the Falcon would manage to spread a message so powerful and controversial uncontested by the propaganda machine of the FO. Yes, the narrative isn't completely consistent with TFA. It's not a big deal to me.

I'm surprised however that apparently very few people are bothered by the moral implications of what happens in TLJ.


It's a celebration of "fake news". Luke did not, in fact, confront the FO. He didn't show up. He didn't risk his life (and this is what, I think, pushed RJ to make the effort of doing what he's doing kill him - he would come off as a coward otherwise). In order for this particular event to work as the trigger for hope to happen, you need people to be lied to; the news are factually fake. The kids on Canto Bight aren't playing pretend that Luke's astral projection is distracting the FO, they're convinced that the legendary guy the Resistance have been talking about for years as the hero who can tip the tides of war has actually come to the galaxy's rescue.

I'm quite mind boggled that RJ didn't see a problem with making Luke's legacy literally deceiving kids. It's not even exaggeration - we see it happen onscreen.
And it's not something that the movie conjures up at the end out of contrivance or poor writing. Luke foreshadows what everybody knows - he's no superweapon, he's not powerful enough to tackle the FO alone or to provide a significant aid in defeating them. In all honestly, all his legendary Jedi powers lent to the cause of the Resistance would probably pale next to what Holdo achieved.
But suddenly, at the end of a movie that is adamant about the effects of war on even good people, Luke projects himself to save Leia and somehow the movie spins this as a positive thing because this deception will lead people to believe Luke Skywalker has come to their rescue and they can throw themselves against the military might he was powerless to defeat.
Somehow TLJ ends up turning Luke Skywalker in the SW equivalent of Vassilj Zajcev and nobody has an issue with it. It's an absolutely dark twist and I comment RJ for having the guts to put it on film, but the way people dismiss it as "hope for everyone!" is mind boggling to me.
You've complained about this before and it's a completely valid take, however Luke's final sacrifice is totally in-tune with the themes running through the movie. In fact, it's one of the big questions the film asks. Let me explain.

The film is routinely asking the important of Legends/Myths and Heroes, something TFA setup. Did Luke Skywalker really defeat the Evil Empire and turn Darth Vader to the Light Side? Did he really single-handedly blow up the Death Star? Han Solo!? The Rebellion leader? No, the outlaw criminal? He made the Kessel Run in 13 Parsecs! Jedi can make people do what they want with their awesome powers! Etc.

What is the importance of Myth and Legend? Are they necessary? Do people need to believe in something higher than themselves to retain Hope? Rey shows up to Ahch-To expecting to greet Luke Skywalker the Legendary Jedi Master. Yes, he'd know exactly what to do, exactly what Rey was supposed to do, he'd defeat TFO, and peace would be restored to the Galaxy. Instead, she found an old hermit filled with nothing but uncertainty and regret. A man who at times lashed out in anger, the total opposite of a supposed calm and collected Jedi Master. Rey initially believes that he could take on the whole First Order alone with nothing but his Laser Sword. The film is about Luke coming to terms with his Legendary/Mythical status. Luke's legend had traveled so far and wide by the end of the OT that even he had begun to believe them, to say nothing of his family like Ben. Thus, he could not fathom that he was just as fallible as every Master that came before him when Ben did not respond to his lessons and eventually turned.

Luke got a massive reality check and TLJ is about him learning to come to grips with his legend. At the end, he realizes that their is power in Myth/Legend. That the Galaxy needs Hope, even if it is potentially "false" Hope. That the mystique and power of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi are needed, that they cannot simply vanish or the galaxy given a reality check. Thus, he goes to confront TFO, alone. In his final act he attempts to bring A New Hope to the Galaxy once more. A Spark to reignite the imagination of the Galaxy.

Now, is this wrong? That's for you to contemplate, the movie wants you to think about that. But, I'd say it's perfectly in line with the spirit of SW which is all about Myths, literally.
 
#71
What about when Luke manipulated the ewoks by playing into their belief that 3PO was a god?
Jedi manipulate weak minded beings all the time. Qui-Gon's first instinct when meeting that obstinate Jewish alien was to pull a mind trick on him and he uses the same trick to get a submarine from Boss Nass. Obi-Wan immediately pulls the same shit on that drug dealer who approaches on Coruscant. Luke used it on the hapless Bib Fortuna and used the Force to scare the Ewoks too. Jedi love their little tricks.

You've complained about this before and it's a completely valid take, however Luke's final sacrifice is totally in-tune with the themes running through the movie. In fact, it's one of the big questions the film asks. Let me explain.

The film is routinely asking the important of Legends/Myths and Heroes, something TFA setup. Did Luke Skywalker really defeat the Evil Empire and turn Darth Vader to the Light Side? Did he really single-handedly blow up the Death Star? Han Solo!? The Rebellion leader? No, the outlaw criminal? He made the Kessel Run in 13 Parsecs! Jedi can make people do what they want with their awesome powers! Etc.

What is the importance of Myth and Legend? Are they necessary? Do people need to believe in something higher than themselves to retain Hope? Rey shows up to Ahch-To expecting to greet Luke Skywalker the Legendary Jedi Master. Yes, he'd know exactly what to do, exactly what Rey was supposed to do, he'd defeat TFO, and peace would be restored to the Galaxy. Instead, she found an old hermit filled with nothing but uncertainty and regret. A man who at times lashed out in anger, the total opposite of a supposed calm and collected Jedi Master. Rey initially believes that he could take on the whole First Order alone with nothing but his Laser Sword. The film is about Luke coming to terms with his Legendary/Mythical status. Luke's legend had traveled so far and wide by the end of the OT that even he had begun to believe them, to say nothing of his family like Ben. Thus, he could not fathom that he was just as fallible as every Master that came before him when Ben did not respond to his lessons and eventually turned.

Luke got a massive reality check and TLJ is about him learning to come to grips with his legend. At the end, he realizes that their is power in Myth/Legend. That the Galaxy needs Hope, even if it is potentially "false" Hope. That the mystique and power of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi are needed, that they cannot simply vanish or the galaxy given a reality check. Thus, he goes to confront TFO, alone. In his final act he attempts to bring A New Hope to the Galaxy once more. A Spark to reignite the imagination of the Galaxy.

Now, is this wrong? That's for you to contemplate, the movie wants you to think about that. But, I'd say it's perfectly in line with the spirit of SW which is all about Myths, literally.
Right. In fact it is Luke's desire to live up to the legacy of his father, a great Jedi and Obi-Wan's good friend who was murdered by Darth Vader, that sets up the whole story and gets him off Tatooine. Even though his father was in fact a legendary asshole and that story was just a crock of shit that Obi-Wan made up.
 
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#72
Kylo on the island were Luke was, missing books, knows Rey has them, the McGuffin begins. Rey can't read them, goes to see Maz. First Order push out into the galaxy to regain the Empire. Rebellion faces them off. Maz says the books will save the day but really it's only to force a face off between Rey and Kylo, which happens while the big battle goes on ROTJ style. The books mean nothing, Rey just had to believe in herself, Kylo never could without believing the books hold a secret to greater power, end McGuffin. Brought to you by JJ Abrams.
 
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#73
You've complained about this before and it's a completely valid take, however Luke's final sacrifice is totally in-tune with the themes running through the movie. In fact, it's one of the big questions the film asks. Let me explain.

The film is routinely asking the important of Legends/Myths and Heroes, something TFA setup. Did Luke Skywalker really defeat the Evil Empire and turn Darth Vader to the Light Side? Did he really single-handedly blow up the Death Star? Han Solo!? The Rebellion leader? No, the outlaw criminal? He made the Kessel Run in 13 Parsecs! Jedi can make people do what they want with their awesome powers! Etc.

What is the importance of Myth and Legend? Are they necessary? Do people need to believe in something higher than themselves to retain Hope? Rey shows up to Ahch-To expecting to greet Luke Skywalker the Legendary Jedi Master. Yes, he'd know exactly what to do, exactly what Rey was supposed to do, he'd defeat TFO, and peace would be restored to the Galaxy. Instead, she found an old hermit filled with nothing but uncertainty and regret. A man who at times lashed out in anger, the total opposite of a supposed calm and collected Jedi Master. Rey initially believes that he could take on the whole First Order alone with nothing but his Laser Sword. The film is about Luke coming to terms with his Legendary/Mythical status. Luke's legend had traveled so far and wide by the end of the OT that even he had begun to believe them, to say nothing of his family like Ben. Thus, he could not fathom that he was just as fallible as every Master that came before him when Ben did not respond to his lessons and eventually turned.

Luke got a massive reality check and TLJ is about him learning to come to grips with his legend. At the end, he realizes that their is power in Myth/Legend. That the Galaxy needs Hope, even if it is potentially "false" Hope. That the mystique and power of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi are needed, that they cannot simply vanish or the galaxy given a reality check. Thus, he goes to confront TFO, alone. In his final act he attempts to bring A New Hope to the Galaxy once more. A Spark to reignite the imagination of the Galaxy.

Now, is this wrong? That's for you to contemplate, the movie wants you to think about that. But, I'd say it's perfectly in line with the spirit of SW which is all about Myths, literally.
I pretty much agree with all of that. The conclusion to the story is foreshadowed by several moments. As I said, it's the most interesting thing about the movie and honestly I can't really understand how people can take any of that as "true hope", as in Luke's sacrifice being a display of power that shows the FO can be beaten.

Luke's actions are completely consistent with him acknowledging he can't fight the FO on his own earlier in the movie. If he was powerful enough to do so, he would show in person.
Luke makes a supreme sacrifice not only giving his life, but also sacrificing his "purity" and what he so staunchly believe in - to the point of isolating himself from those he loved - in order to become the symbol he didn't want to be. I think in RJ's vision Luke is fully aware that the story of what transpired on Crait will become exactly that "lie" he told Rey he couldn't live up to. And that also gives a deeper meaning to the fact he's a projection, and younger and fitter and different from what Luke actually is.
And while the usefulness of his actions is evident, it's not a glorious moment to me. It's a very sad and melancholic moment for the character. Luke isn't afraid to die, but he does so doing something he himself ultimately didn't believe in. He doesn't just sacrifice his life but he also immolates himself to become that kind of icon he so strongly rejected in his time on Ach-To. Which is a selfless act, but also a dark moment. The idea that the galaxy needs a lie, a moment of propaganda to find the will to fight back is the most interesting subversion in the movie for me. Star Wars is generally about feel good love-wins-over-hate morals. TLJ is sombering in this regard.

I'm just puzzled at the amount of people who seem to absolutely take all this stuff as a nice little "Fuck yeah Luke rocks!" moment.
 
#74
A lone hero facing down an overwhelming opposing force is one of the oldest story tropes of all time and has occurred many times in human history. A realistic account of what happened on Crait would be:

- the most famous Jedi of all time appeared from the base
- he was invulnerable to laser fire
- the Supreme Leader of the First Order could not harm him in single combat
- he vanished along with the Resistance

Sounds pretty inspiring to me.
It absolutely is, except the true story is that:

- he wasn't there, he was the equivalent of an hologram
- he wasn't invulnerable, he just wasn't there
- same as above
- he died


The problem is precisely that the tale is pretty, the legend is inspiring, the truth is ugly.
 
#75
It absolutely is, except the true story is that:

- he wasn't there, he was the equivalent of an hologram
- he wasn't invulnerable, he just wasn't there
- same as above
- he died


The problem is precisely that the tale is pretty, the legend is inspiring, the truth is ugly.
The true story is that he used the Force. It wasn't a cardboard cutout of Luke that they wheeled out there. Luke did it all using his Jedi powers.
 
#76
‘the resistance is the spark that will deliver an electric current from an ignition system to the combustion chamber to ignite the fuel / air mix causing a combustion which will cause a fire that burn down the first order’

best line in the film
 
#77
The true story is that he used the Force. It wasn't a cardboard cutout of Luke that they wheeled out there. Luke did it all using his Jedi powers.
It’s almost as if Luke did something that cost him his life. How uninspiring. Get out of here with this nonsense, Visanideth.
 
#78
It’s almost as if Luke did something that cost him his life. How uninspiring. Get out of here with this nonsense, Visanideth.
I could answer with "Holdo did the same and achieved much more" but this is actually the part that I'm interested in discussing.

So the kids on Canto Bight know Luke died? The galaxy knows Luke died and that's what makes the entire thing inspiring?
 
#79
I could answer with "Holdo did the same and achieved much more" but this is actually the part that I'm interested in discussing.

So the kids on Canto Bight know Luke died? The galaxy knows Luke died and that's what makes the entire thing inspiring?
Man you're a Christian, does Jesus' sacrifice not inspire anything in you?
 
#81
TBH and this is covered by better people than me. The current setting for the new series (just adding that I still like these films), is paper thin. Think about the First Order. They are meant to be new Big Bad, but they have no control of the Galactic capital and surrounding systems, which at the very least indicates they are falling back hard. Yet there is no indication of them being on the ropes. Yet somehow being the under dogs at the start, they've built an armada, a DeathStar x20, like weapon and a huge army? Where they getting the money? Where they getting the men?

It's ughhh. It makes no sense when you start to thing about it and it gets stranger as time goes on. End of the first film the First Order is pretty much defeated. The Rebels took a hit, but they are by no means mortally wounded. The First Order has lost pretty much everything. Yet by the second film, they've conquered most of the Galaxy, built a massive armada and a super Star Destroyer. I refuse to acknowledge this existed elsewhere during the first film, because why wasn't it defending the super Death Star base, that probably was the most powerful weapon in the whole galaxy! Plus it's implied that only 2 years at most have gone by. Where has this industrial base come from?

Moving on. The Rebels are on the ropes, they've lost everything and any allies they had. Wtf happened? How is the First Order still about? What do they do to garner support from the whole galaxy? Do they offer a third weekend day? They don't have another super Death Star Base. They should have been wiped out by the collective galaxy just getting their freak on and murdering them. I sound like a fanboi thinking way too much into it, but the story on the gambling planet, makes you think about this. It's...It's...better not to think about it. Which is what I think you're going to have to do with the next film. Even with it set a few years down the line, it's not going to solve the issues I've listed.
 
#82
Man you're a Christian, does Jesus' sacrifice not inspire anything in you?
This is a giant digression, but one of the most complex elements to reconcile with in Jesus' sacrifice is precisely the fact that he knew he would resurrect and whether that can still be considered a sacrifice. Besides the significance of Jesus' sacrifice was fairly far removed from inspiring people to take up arms.


Also, that is not a loaded question.

The entire topic is about discussing what you feel is the right interpretation here; if people know the truth of what happened on Crait or if the story moves on the premise that people across the galaxy think that Luke actually went to Crait and survived.
 
#83
TBH and this is covered by better people than me. The current setting for the new series (just adding that I still like these films), is paper thin. Think about the First Order. They are meant to be new Big Bad, but they have no control of the Galactic capital and surrounding systems, which at the very least indicates they are falling back hard. Yet there is no indication of them being on the ropes. Yet somehow being the under dogs at the start, they've built an armada, a DeathStar x20, like weapon and a huge army? Where they getting the money? Where they getting the men?

It's ughhh. It makes no sense when you start to thing about it and it gets stranger as time goes on. End of the first film the First Order is pretty much defeated. The Rebels took a hit, but they are by no means mortally wounded. The First Order has lost pretty much everything. Yet by the second film, they've conquered most of the Galaxy, built a massive armada and a super Star Destroyer. I refuse to acknowledge this existed elsewhere during the first film, because why wasn't it defending the super Death Star base, that probably was the most powerful weapon in the whole galaxy! Plus it's implied that only 2 years at most have gone by. Where has this industrial base come from?

Moving on. The Rebels are on the ropes, they've lost everything and any allies they had. Wtf happened? How is the First Order still about? What do they do to garner support from the whole galaxy? Do they offer a third weekend day? They don't have another super Death Star Base. They should have been wiped out by the collective galaxy just getting their freak on and murdering them. I sound like a fanboi thinking way too much into it, but the story on the gambling planet, makes you think about this. It's...It's...better not to think about it. Which is what I think you're going to have to do with the next film. Even with it set a few years down the line, it's not going to solve the issues I've listed.
I think there's a misconception here: TLJ picks up exactly where TFA ended. Rey just met Luke and the Resistance is boarding their ships. It's not 2 years, it's barely 2 seconds.
 
#84
This is a giant digression, but one of the most complex elements to reconcile with in Jesus' sacrifice is precisely the fact that he knew he would resurrect and whether that can still be considered a sacrifice. Besides the significance of Jesus' sacrifice was fairly far removed from inspiring people to take up arms.


Also, that is not a loaded question.

The entire topic is about discussing what you feel is the right interpretation here; if people know the truth of what happened on Crait or if the story moves on the premise that people across the galaxy think that Luke actually went to Crait and survived.
The illusion - Luke faced down the First Order and neither their giant walkers or Kylo Ren himself could damage him

The truth - using the power of the Force Luke projected a phantasm of himself from halfway across the galaxy, distracting the First Order and Kylo Ren while the Resistance escaped

There is no dark secret waiting to be discovered by the galaxy at large. Luke saved the Resistance using his Jedi powers whether they take the projection at face value or understand what really happened. Until we see Episode IX we won’t know whether people think Luke is still alive or not. All we know for now is that the story of his appearance on Crait became well known.
 
#85
I pretty much agree with all of that. The conclusion to the story is foreshadowed by several moments. As I said, it's the most interesting thing about the movie and honestly I can't really understand how people can take any of that as "true hope", as in Luke's sacrifice being a display of power that shows the FO can be beaten.

Luke's actions are completely consistent with him acknowledging he can't fight the FO on his own earlier in the movie. If he was powerful enough to do so, he would show in person.
Luke makes a supreme sacrifice not only giving his life, but also sacrificing his "purity" and what he so staunchly believe in - to the point of isolating himself from those he loved - in order to become the symbol he didn't want to be. I think in RJ's vision Luke is fully aware that the story of what transpired on Crait will become exactly that "lie" he told Rey he couldn't live up to. And that also gives a deeper meaning to the fact he's a projection, and younger and fitter and different from what Luke actually is.
And while the usefulness of his actions is evident, it's not a glorious moment to me. It's a very sad and melancholic moment for the character. Luke isn't afraid to die, but he does so doing something he himself ultimately didn't believe in. He doesn't just sacrifice his life but he also immolates himself to become that kind of icon he so strongly rejected in his time on Ach-To. Which is a selfless act, but also a dark moment. The idea that the galaxy needs a lie, a moment of propaganda to find the will to fight back is the most interesting subversion in the movie for me. Star Wars is generally about feel good love-wins-over-hate morals. TLJ is sombering in this regard.

I'm just puzzled at the amount of people who seem to absolutely take all this stuff as a nice little "Fuck yeah Luke rocks!" moment.
This is where we disagree, Luke does believe in what he's doing at the end. It's why he did it. The Luke at the start of the film was angry at the "Legend" of Luke Skywalker, he was fed up with the Myth of the Jedi. It's all just smoke and mirrors to bury the truth, the Jedi allowed the rise of the Dark Side. The Jedi created Darth Vader. The ugly truths the legends and myths don't cover. But, at the end, he comes to accept that those myths and legends are necessary. That they give the Galaxy hope. That they were what gave him Hope all those years ago as a young moisture farmer. And, that the Galaxy needed that same Hope once again. He's not committing some personal sacrilege to satisfy everyone, he's accepting the mantle of the Legend that he himself helped create and once believed in, and using it for its intended purpose, to inspire the Galaxy.
 
#87
Luke's actions being the spark really never made any sense really. It was a cool moment to see, but how exactly was that supposed to be the "spark" that ignites a Rebellion? Luke fooled the First Order into thinking he was real? The FO still wont, they wiped out all but a small transport full of Resistance members... 12 people? How does Luke's illusion trick make any significance in the nature of it all, especially with out outlandish it was and it was essentially just First Order who saw it happen. "oh man Luke like wasn't even there, Kylo was pissed..... wow lets start a rebellion". It kinda goes along with why everyone is so upbeat and happy at the end in the Falcon when they got their asses beat, all their comrades are dead, and the First Order are gonna be unopposed in taking over the galaxy now. The movie portrays essentially a type of victory that just wasn't well presented at all.

So the First Order after this is gonna take over the galaxy, and a story of how the people who stood up to them all failed is gonna spark something?

Heck Rebels TV series did a better job of pushing the idea of a spark for the Rebellion, with characters achieving things, creating hope. TLJ ending and events are not inspiring or stuff that is going to create a rebellion, if anything it's a warning to those who would try to oppose the First Order
 
#88
This is a giant digression, but one of the most complex elements to reconcile with in Jesus' sacrifice is precisely the fact that he knew he would resurrect and whether that can still be considered a sacrifice. Besides the significance of Jesus' sacrifice was fairly far removed from inspiring people to take up arms.


Also, that is not a loaded question.

The entire topic is about discussing what you feel is the right interpretation here; if people know the truth of what happened on Crait or if the story moves on the premise that people across the galaxy think that Luke actually went to Crait and survived.
Now, this is where the film's themes are muddled because what is actually "the truth?" What I mean is, is it possible for a Jedi to do what Luke did and actually be physically present? We have no idea. In the past, such as in the EU, the answer would be absofuckinglutely. Powerful Force Users could fucking cause a Star to go supernova and wipe out whole enemy fleets in a system. And, in TLJ alone, a dead Yoda called down lighting from the fucking sky.

In fact, the finale works before we realize the twist because we the audience are completely wrapped up in Jedi Myth, we have no idea what a full power Luke Skywalker can do. We believe like everyone else that he was there and could do all of that until the twist is revealed. So, what is the truth? Could Luke have survived such an assault was he physically there? Is there such limits to The Force? Again, we don't know. The film doesn't answer this and perhaps this is done intentionally. We are like the kids at the end replaying the final showdown and likely the soldiers who talked about in ports and bars afterwards constantly questioning or stating with certainty what really happened and how strong Luke actually was.

Thus, it's hard to classify Luke's act as an outright "lie" because we ourselves don't know the real truth concerning the Power of the Force. And, we really aren't supposed to.

Luke's actions being the spark really never made any sense really. It was a cool moment to see, but how exactly was that supposed to be the "spark" that ignites a Rebellion? Luke fooled the First Order into thinking he was real? The FO still wont, they wiped out all but a small transport full of Resistance members... 12 people? How does Luke's illusion trick make any significance in the nature of it all, especially with out outlandish it was and it was essentially just First Order who saw it happen. "oh man Luke like wasn't even there, Kylo was pissed..... wow lets start a rebellion". It kinda goes along with why everyone is so upbeat and happy at the end in the Falcon when they got their asses beat, all their comrades are dead, and the First Order are gonna be unopposed in taking over the galaxy now. The movie portrays essentially a type of victory that just wasn't well presented at all.
TFO has no idea that Luke wasn't really there, they aren't trained Force Users like Kylo Ren. For all they know Luke Skywalker held off the entire First Order and battled the Supreme Leader before teleporting away. The significance of such a story is clear, if one Jedi can do all of that, then there is clearly Hope for our fight yet.
 
#89
The final scene isn't just about Luke. It's also about Finn and Rose's actions on Canto Bight, and which influenced those kids as well. They watched first-hand as two people wreaked havok on the people enslaving them.
 
#92
TLJ had the most bizarre ending. The FO managed to completely crush the the resistance with a mere handful of people surviving to flee on the Falcon after no help at all responded to the SOS. Luke the last Jedi and a beacon of hope is now gone. Somehow this is a spark of hope to the rest of the galaxy? The movie acting like the outcome was a happy ending is so dissonant from what we actually watched.
 
#93
This is where we disagree, Luke does believe in what he's doing at the end. It's why he did it. The Luke at the start of the film was angry at the "Legend" of Luke Skywalker, he was fed up with the Myth of the Jedi. It's all just smoke and mirrors to bury the truth, the Jedi allowed the rise of the Dark Side. The Jedi created Darth Vader. The ugly truths the legends and myths don't cover. But, at the end, he comes to accept that those myths and legends are necessary. That they give the Galaxy hope. That they were what gave him Hope all those years ago as a young moisture farmer. And, that the Galaxy needed that same Hope once again. He's not committing some personal sacrilege to satisfy everyone, he's accepting the mantle of the Legend that he himself helped create and once believed in, and using it for its intended purpose, to inspire the Galaxy.

I simply think Luke wishes the galaxy didn't need that kind of symbol; I feel like he's in a bit of a Brecht-like spree, "unhappy is the land that needs a hero" sort of thing. He understands he can have a positive impact by doing what he does, he understand it may be his role in the story, but he doesn't like it.

And heck, in a way it kind of rhymes with Hamill's stance on all this. He's been adamant on how RJ's take on the character wasn't what he envisioned or wanted but ultimately he accepted it was what the story needed.

*insert GL "it's like poetry" gif here*
 
#94
TLJ had the most bizarre ending. The FO managed to completely crush the the resistance with a mere handful of people surviving to flee on the Falcon after no help at all responded to the SOS. Luke the last Jedi and a beacon of hope is now gone. Somehow this is a spark of hope to the rest of the galaxy? The movie acting like the outcome was a happy ending is so dissonant from what we actually watched.

I think this is partially due to TLJ needing a "dark" ending due to its themes, story and position in the trilogy, but also RJ not wanting to have Luke Skywalker's sendoff be a moment of pure depression.

I remain of the opinion that Luke shouldn't have died in Ep. VIII and his sendoff was way too celebrative and epic for the tone of the movie, but that's just me.
 
#95
TLJ had the most bizarre ending. The FO managed to completely crush the the resistance with a mere handful of people surviving to flee on the Falcon after no help at all responded to the SOS. Luke the last Jedi and a beacon of hope is now gone. Somehow this is a spark of hope to the rest of the galaxy? The movie acting like the outcome was a happy ending is so dissonant from what we actually watched.
Luke single-handedly stopped the First Order by himself, without even being on planet. That is absolutely inspiring. Inspiring to both the Resistance survivors and those who needed hope in the universe.
 
#96
I think this is partially due to TLJ needing a "dark" ending due to its themes, story and position in the trilogy, but also RJ not wanting to have Luke Skywalker's sendoff be a moment of pure depression.

I remain of the opinion that Luke shouldn't have died in Ep. VIII and his sendoff was way too celebrative and epic for the tone of the movie, but that's just me.
What about my question did you find loaded?
 
#97
You're giving this way more thought than any of the writers.

Everything that happens in modern movies like this is plot convenience to push character drama. "Oh and then Luke sacrifices himself and that's huge because Luke is popular and then the Resistance gets big and new heroes arrive." There's no logic to it. There's no grand plan. It's all contrivance, convenience, empty throw away plots that bounce from here to there without any plan or consistency all for the sake of memorable character moments. Because the pastiche of all these character moments is what executives thinks connects and, more importantly, what sells products beyond the movie.
This is such a sad, r/Iamverysmart, adolescent mentality of looking at filmmaking.
 
#98
What about my question did you find loaded?
Nothing, I meant to say MY question wasn't loaded.

You can answer either way (people know the true story vs people know a romanticized version were Luke shows up in person and survive) and argue the story works. It's what we're meant to discuss here.

I was simply stating that saying that probably the kids think Luke owned the FO and flew away on his X Wing isn't some sort of "gotcha!" that means admitting the movie is incoherent or poorly written.
 
#99
Now, this is where the film's themes are muddled because what is actually "the truth?" What I mean is, is it possible for a Jedi to do what Luke did and actually be physically present? We have no idea. In the past, such as in the EU, the answer would be absofuckinglutely. Powerful Force Users could fucking cause a Star to go supernova and wipe out whole enemy fleets in a system. And, in TLJ alone, a dead Yoda called down lighting from the fucking sky.

In fact, the finale works before we realize the twist because we the audience are completely wrapped up in Jedi Myth, we have no idea what a full power Luke Skywalker can do. We believe like everyone else that he was there and could do all of that until the twist is revealed. So, what is the truth? Could Luke have survived such an assault was he physically there? Is there such limits to The Force? Again, we don't know. The film doesn't answer this and perhaps this is done intentionally. We are like the kids at the end replaying the final showdown and likely the soldiers who talked about in ports and bars afterwards constantly questioning or stating with certainty what really happened and how strong Luke actually was.

Thus, it's hard to classify Luke's act as an outright "lie" because we ourselves don't know the real truth concerning the Power of the Force. And, we really aren't supposed to.

I feel so priviledged knowing how well JJ will implement this ambiguity in his story and do justice to these themes in IX.


(I wonder how the not-Ewoks will look like).
 
I feel so priviledged knowing how well JJ will implement this ambiguity in his story and do justice to these themes in IX.


(I wonder how the not-Ewoks will look like).
Rian should be doing IX, not a hobo's Spielberg.

Which is why the former's new trilogy is something to be incredibly excited for. No more Skywalker bullshit to tie down the story's potential.
 
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