Let's talk about "the Spark" in TLJ.

Luke single-handedly stopped the First Order by himself, without even being on planet. That is absolutely inspiring. Inspiring to both the Resistance survivors and those who needed hope in the universe.
Stopped? Stopped would have been the resistance fighters standing over the burning remains of the FO, or even just the resistance watching the FO leave with their tail between their legs. What he did is briefly stall them so that the few remaining resistance fighters could sneak away on their lone remaining ship after absolutely no help responded to their distress call. The resistance didn't even have a pyrrhic victory. It was a straight up ass whooping. The end of the movie was incredibly bleak for the resistance. They lost everything and Luke is gone.
 
Nothing, I meant to say MY question wasn't loaded.

You can answer either way (people know the true story vs people know a romanticized version were Luke shows up in person and survive) and argue the story works. It's what we're meant to discuss here.

I was simply stating that saying that probably the kids think Luke owned the FO and flew away on his X Wing isn't some sort of "gotcha!" that means admitting the movie is incoherent or poorly written.
I never thought your question was loaded or implying the movie was bad, I just found it odd that you'd look at someone who died for something/others he believed in as not inspiring when the central figure of the religion you follow is largely known for giving his own life (knowingly or not). I was trying to encourage you to try to think about this stuff from a different point of view, particularly one you're already familiar with. Star Wars is largely inspired by mythology and religion, after all, with the Jedi being called a religion consistently throughout the series and Luke's father being known as its chosen one.
 
Stopped? Stopped would have been the resistance fighters standing over the burning remains of the FO, or even just the resistance watching the FO leave with their tail between their legs. What he did is briefly stall them so that the few remaining resistance fighters could sneak away on their lone remaining ship after absolutely no help responded to their distress call. The resistance didn't even have a pyrrhic victory. It was a straight up ass whooping. The end of the movie was incredibly bleak for the resistance. They lost everything and Luke is gone.
Without Luke, the Resistance would have died there. A victory for the First Order turned into the Resistance's chance to rise from the ashes as a whole new generation becomes inspired to fight back. This isn't a single battle that ended the war, this is the turning point that will cost the First Order in the end.
 
Without Luke, the Resistance would have died there. A victory for the First Order turned into the Resistance's chance to rise from the ashes as a whole new generation becomes inspired to fight back. This isn't a single battle that ended the war, this is the turning point that will cost the First Order in the end.
The FO reducing their only opposition to a mere handful on a single old beaten up ship is somehow a victory for the resistance? I'm not seeing how being utterly crushed by the FO is a positive turning point for the resistance. I think not playing up just how dire the situation for the resistance was at the end of the movie was a real missed opportunity. It would have given the next movie more impact.
 
There is a problem the movies have shown to exist, basically whatever government the rebels end up making is going to be right back in the same position as the New Republic and the failing one in the prequels. Choked and unable to do anything, not that you know that based on the movies, it's the extra stuff you learn about from the novels. The information put out there to let you know why things are happening the way they are. Those that support the Empireish ways want to have a government that rules and end up joining the FO while the planets that rebelled in the first place want everyone to control their own destroy and come together in unity. Unfortunately when you got thousands of worlds unity is a hell of a thing to actually make happen. Look at our own government ways on earth which are a mess, then imagine at how a galaxy is suppose to come together.
 
Luke single-handedly stopped the First Order by himself, without even being on planet. That is absolutely inspiring. Inspiring to both the Resistance survivors and those who needed hope in the universe.
He didn't stop shit. He allowed the last twentysomething surviving members of the Resistance to escape, the First Order wasn't stopped.

Also, even if what he did was inspiring (which is was, agreed, even though he didn't stop the First Order like you say), the tone of the ending was still odd to say the least. On the Falcon everybody is high fiving and smiling, Poe is being starstruck because of Rey and the final words are about using the experience on Crait to create hope in the Galaxy. That's an incredibly weird way to end a movie where in the final act pretty much the entire Resistance got blown to bits.

Imagine Avengers: Infinity War ending on a shot of all our surviving heroes meeting up, smiling and Thor saying 'Hey, now that we're back to just the old gang, how about we all go for a shawarma, like good old times?' That would be odd, right?
 
The FO reducing their only opposition to a mere handful on a single old beaten up ship is somehow a victory for the resistance? I'm not seeing how being utterly crushed by the FO is a positive turning point for the resistance. I think not playing up just how dire the situation for the resistance was at the end of the movie was a real missed opportunity. It would have given the next movie more impact.
Because the alternative was being entirely wiped out.

If you're stick in a corner and guaranteed to die, getting out maimed but alive to fight another day is absolutely a victory.

What Spark? Luke videoconferencing in that final fight has to be the worst thing imaginable. No one would be inspired by that.
I love that all the detractors basically try to boil it down to him not being there despite the ramifications and strain of what he did. It's always a lame attempt to make his power use seem weak.
 
I'm sure Snoke's death alone would be enough to make people have faith that Luke did something really effective.

Of course the two events aren't even really related, but the common people don't know that. Snoke died around the same time Luke showed up and supposedly escaped a FO onslaught unscathed
 
Because the alternative was being entirely wiped out.

If you're stick in a corner and guaranteed to die, getting out maimed but alive to fight another day is absolutely a victory.
Alternatively audiences hate bummer endings so they acted like it was a happy ending even though the resistance had lost nearly everything.
 
almost 2 years later and you still are keeping saying that what luke did its a "lie" a "deception" dude, you have to let it go, only you are keeping the resistance and luke to this standard.


and again, you really dont know if rey will be claim as a resistance hero on episode IX
 
Alternatively audiences hate bummer endings so they acted like it was a happy ending even though the resistance had lost nearly everything.
Who's acting like it's a happy ending? It's bittersweet, with a hopeful feeling to it because they weren't wiped out and had new hope.
 
Who's acting like it's a happy ending? It's bittersweet, with a hopeful feeling to it because they weren't wiped out and had new hope.
They called for help and the rest of the galaxy left them for dead. There was no sweet, but that didn't stop the film from acting like there was.
 
They called for help and the rest of the galaxy left them for dead. There was no sweet, but that didn't stop the film from acting like there was.
It's absolutely bittersweet. They lost much of their old Resistance just trying to survive, but in turn a new generation has been inspired and will be the ones to join the Resistance. A death and rebirth of freedom and idealism as it were.
 
They called for help and the rest of the galaxy left them for dead. There was no sweet, but that didn't stop the film from acting like there was.
Except it doesn't end on the call not answered. It ends with them escaping an impossible situation which inspires the galaxy to stand up and fight. Literally the call was the "darkest before dawn".

It's absolutely bittersweet. They lost much of their old Resistance just trying to survive, but in turn a new generation has been inspired and will be the ones to join the Resistance. A death and rebirth of freedom and idealism as it were.
Exactly.
 
Except it doesn't end on the call not answered. It ends with them escaping an impossible situation which inspires the galaxy to stand up and fight. Literally the call was the "darkest before dawn".


Exactly.
It ends with them crawling away from a completely demoralizing loss of all their ships and personell. No one responded to their calls for help. In TFA Luke was presented as their big hope for turning the tide, but now Luke Skywalker has abandoned them to their own devices either intentionally or unintentionally. It's hard to imagine the situation seeming any more dire. Maybe in 10 or 20 years it could be looked back at as an important moment in the resistance, but not in the immediate aftermath. The hopeful ending sapped a lot of the drama out of the last third of the movie. It should have been saved for the sequel.

I'll admit that expecting the movie to end on a bummer is foolish as it's a major blockbuster movie, and audiences hate bummer endings. So I see why they ended it that way, but it still makes no sense to end on a hopeful note in the immediate aftermath of the events we witnessed.
 
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I can image the opening crawl of EP9 as this:

"Episode 9: Don't Cry for me, Cantina.

Chaos! General Leia is dead. The Rebel Alliance is in disarray. In the stunning revelation, Emperor Snoke was revealed to be alive where merely his clone was assassinated by Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren was nowhere to be found.

Meanwhile, Rey's parental heritage finally emerged from the shadows and it was revealed she was the illegitimate by-product of a fling between Qui-Gon-Jinn's force ghost and another slave girl in Tatooine, Tdinj Groundflyer. Angered at her parentage, Rey decided to take adopt the dark side of the force and set out to conquer the galaxy...."


Don't flame me :P
 
It ends with them crawling away from a completely demoralizing loss of all their ships and personell.
This contributes to the bitter, yes.

No one responded to their calls for help
That's not the ending.

In TFA Luke was presented as their big hope for turning the tide, but now Luke Skywalker has abandoned them to their own devices either intentionally or unintentionally.
1. No, he saved them all and essentially performed a miracle.

2.


I'll admit that expecting the movie to end on a bummer is foolish as it's a major blockbuster movie, and audiences hate bummer endings. So I see why they ended it that way, but it still makes no sense to end on a hopeful note in the immediate aftermath of the events we witnessed.
It makes total sense, and has been explained multiple times why the ending is bittersweet. The resistance goes from the brink of destruction to a miraculous escape thanks to a single legendary hero. And not only that, they're aided in their escape by someone that shows the potential to create her own legend, and demonstrates similar powers to what the original hero had.

The ending has them go from literally a hopeless situation, about to be snuffed out, to escaping and being inspired by the actions of individuals that were willing to step up against a seemingly undefeatable opponent.
 
This contributes to the bitter, yes.


That's not the ending.


1. No, he saved them all and essentially performed a miracle.

2.



It makes total sense, and has been explained multiple times why the ending is bittersweet. The resistance goes from the brink of destruction to a miraculous escape thanks to a single legendary hero. And not only that, they're aided in their escape by someone that shows the potential to create her own legend, and demonstrates similar powers to what the original hero had.

The ending has them go from literally a hopeless situation, about to be snuffed out, to escaping and being inspired by the actions of individuals that were willing to step up against a seemingly undefeatable opponent.
That is like "The glass is 1% full" take on the ending of the movie which appears to be what they were going for for whatever reason.
 
I can image the opening crawl of EP9 as this:

"Episode 9: Don't Cry for me, Cantina.

Chaos! General Leia is dead. The Rebel Alliance is in disarray. In the stunning revelation, Emperor Snoke was revealed to be alive where merely his clone was assassinated by Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren was nowhere to be found.

Meanwhile, Rey's parental heritage finally emerged from the shadows and it was revealed she was the illegitimate by-product of a fling between Qui-Gon-Jinn's force ghost and another slave girl in Tatooine, Tdinj Groundflyer. Angered at her parentage, Rey decided to take adopt the dark side of the force and set out to conquer the galaxy...."


Don't flame me :P

While this is parody, I dread to admit I'm fundamentally convinced we will get an opening crawl that fundamentally says "The FO owns the galaxy and can't stop winning, will our plucky heroes manage to achieve the unthinkable and overthrow them?".
 
That is like "The glass is 1% full" take on the ending of the movie which appears to be what they were going for for whatever reason.
Um no? It's a traditional story concept, people here have explained multiple times why it's a bittersweet moment. It's literally about rising from the ahses.

While this is parody, I dread to admit I'm fundamentally convinced we will get an opening crawl that fundamentally says "The FO owns the galaxy and can't stop winning, will our plucky heroes manage to achieve the unthinkable and overthrow them?".
"The evil FIRST ORDER have created a monsterous DEATH GALAXY LASER. The brave RESISTANCE must race to find a weakness and end the FIRST ORDERS evil reign."
 
Um no? It's a traditional story concept, people here have explained multiple times why it's a bittersweet moment. It's literally about rising from the ahses.
That means that nothing that happened in the movie really matters then. Get crushingly defeated, and eh, they'll be back shortly regardless. Like I said, they sapped all the drama out of the end of the movies if the stakes never really mattered that much.
 
1. No, he saved them all and essentially performed a miracle.

2.

This shit right here.

I mean, ok, Luke Skywalker was cool and all, but the guy literally struggled with 3 small rocks and he had more formal training than Rey.

The Resistance has a nuclear deterrent of much greater magnitude than Luke in Rey. She's a lot more powerful than he ever was (and he admits as much in TLJ). There's reason for the audience to hope - the good guys have better chances to win with Rey than they had with Luke - and that what makes the "spark" arc somewhat perplexing in its consequences for the galaxy. Rey has already outdone Luke in terms of military achievements, she's more powerful than him as a force user, and she's alive, a precious quality. She's completely immune to the lure of the Dark Side, too.

People tend to overlook how insanely powerful Rey is - even fans, I suspect to try and defuse the stupid "Mary Sue" claims.

The Resistance doesn't really need Luke in terms of Jedi powers or combat potency. Rey is stronger. The Resistance needed Luke as a symbol and an icon, and depending on your satisfaction with the final arc of the movie, he delivered that.
 
While this is parody, I dread to admit I'm fundamentally convinced we will get an opening crawl that fundamentally says "The FO owns the galaxy and can't stop winning, will our plucky heroes manage to achieve the unthinkable and overthrow them?".
The political situation in the Sequel Trilogy is one of the most confusing and vague things in the series.

In TFA you're almost led to believe this is some sort of fringe group that somehow got the funds and materials needed to transform an entire planet in a giant death laser which gets destroyed at the end, creating the idea that their main base is destroyed.

Then TLJ opens with the line "The First Order reigns surpreme", which doesn't make much sense considering they just lost a massive base of operations. But no, apparently their real base of operations is a kilometers wide ship, which also gets destroyed at the end of the movie. Not only that, but they lost their leader, leaving them with two manchildren with anger issues in charge. Yet again, the First Order doesn't really show signs of slowing down, mounting a massive last-minute invasion.

So it wouldn't surprise me if in Ep IX the First Order is once again "more powerful than ever".
 
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That means that nothing that happened in the movie really matters then. Get crushingly defeated, and eh, they'll be back shortly regardless. Like I said, they sapped all the drama out of the end of the movies if the stakes never really mattered that much.
What are you talking about? The stakes were that they were nearly wiped out. By your logic none of the Star Wars movies had stakes and were pointless (especially empire etc).

This comment is legitimately perplexing.
 
"The evil FIRST ORDER have created a monsterous DEATH GALAXY LASER. The brave RESISTANCE must race to find a weakness and end the FIRST ORDERS evil reign."
"
STAR WARS

EPISODE IX

REVENGEANCE OF THE MARY POPPINS

Battle! The Alliance is crumbling
under attacks by the ruthless
Force User, Kylo Ren.
There are villains on both sides.
Evil & Justice are everywhere.

In a stunning move, the
fiendish First Order commander, General
Armitage Hux, has swept into the
Alliance base and kidnapped
General Leia Organa, leader of
the Rebel Alliance.

As the First Order Fleet
attempts to flee the besieged
capital with their valuable
hostage, two spunky rebel heroes, Rey & Finn, lead a
desperate mission to rescue the
captive General....

"
 
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What are you talking about? The stakes were that they were nearly wiped out. By your logic none of the Star Wars movies had stakes and were pointless (especially empire etc).

This comment is legitimately perplexing.
Did you even watch the OT? The rebels only survived A New Hope by blowing up the Deathstar. In Empire the rebels managed to escape with most of their force intact, and the stakes involved were very personal stakes with Luke losing a hand, and Han being frozen. In Jedi the rebels brought the fight to the empire and blew up the Deathstar again. The empire never crushed the rebels in any of the movies. The ending of TLJ is by far the lowest point in any of the post prequel movies by a huge margin.

The equivalent in the OT would be if the Deathstar had managed to destroy the base at the end of A New Hope and Luke died in the process of stalling Vader so that Leia and a few members of the rebelion could sneak off the base. No one would have considered it a bittersweet ending.
 
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Did you even watch the OT?
Lol I'm pretty sure you haven't seen TLJ based on your arguments.

very personal stakes with Luke losing a hand,
Which based on YOUR OWN COMMENTS doesn't matter because he effectively had his hand back!

and Han being frozen.
Doesn't matter because they'll build themselves up and get him back!

Get crushingly defeated, and eh, they'll be back shortly regardless.
The rebels only survived A New Hope by blowing up the Deathstar.
Which has literally nothing to do with your point, nor does it affect the stakes since in both cases the rebels and resistance were at risk of being wiped out.

In Jedi the rebels brought the fight to the empire and blew up the Deathstar again.
And again, not exactly a change in stakes from these movies.

The equivalent in the OT would be if the Deathstar had managed to destroy the base at the end of A New Hope and Luke died in the process of stalling Vader so that Leia and a few members of the rebelion could sneak off the base. No one would have considered it a bittersweet ending.
Sure, because that's not the equivalent of what happened lol. I think a closer example might be if an entire planet was destroyed by the deathstar, and the mentor character (maybe Obi-wan) died stalling Vader so the main cast could get away!
Hint: The reason why what happens in ANH is more similar than what you suggested is because the one dying was the supporting mentor, not the protagonist, which is not what happened in TLJ

Like I said, your complaints don't really seem consistent or make sense.
 
Did you even watch the OT? The rebels only survived A New Hope by blowing up the Deathstar. In Empire the rebels managed to escape with most of their force intact, and the stakes involved were very personal stakes with Luke losing a hand, and Han being frozen. In Jedi the rebels brought the fight to the empire and blew up the Deathstar again. The empire never crushed the rebels in any of the movies. The ending of TLJ is by far the lowest point in any of the post prequel movies by a huge margin.

The equivalent in the OT would be if the Deathstar had managed to destroy the base at the end of A New Hope and Luke died in the process of stalling Vader so that Leia and a few members of the rebelion could sneak off the base. No one would have considered it a bittersweet ending.
Obi-Wan did exactly that in ANH. In fact the end of ANH's second act is not that different to TLJ's ending, where the old wizard sacrifices himself so the young heroes can escape and fight another day. Their escape from the Death Star is bittersweet as they have their freedom but have also lost one of the last Jedi Knights and Luke's only connection to his father. Luckily Luke seizes the hero's mantle and it's revealed that Obi-Wan lives on through the Force. Exactly as Luke will in IX.

As the midpoint in a trilogy it's not unusual for TLJ to have that type of ending, Empire also had a bittersweet ending with Han captured, the Empire resurgent and Luke grappling with Obi-Wan's lies about his father.
 
Like I said, your complaints don't really seem consistent or make sense.

No it wouldn't make sense to someone that thinks the hopeful ending of TLJ is tonally consistent with the level of failure of the resistance in the movie.

Obi-Wan did exactly that in ANH. In fact the end of ANH's second act is not that different to TLJ's ending, where the old wizard sacrifices himself so the young heroes can escape and fight another day. Their escape from the Death Star is bittersweet as they have their freedom but have also lost one of the last Jedi Knights and Luke's only connection to his father. Luckily Luke seizes the hero's mantle and it's revealed that Obi-Wan lives on through the Force. Exactly as Luke will in IX.

As the midpoint in a trilogy it's not unusual for TLJ to have that type of ending, Empire also had a bittersweet ending with Han captured, the Empire resurgent and Luke grappling with Obi-Wan's lies about his father.
All of that was just to show that none of the other post prequel movies had anywhere near the level of abject failure that TLJ did. It was a "we won't even wait for the sequel reasure the audience that there's nothing to worry about" ending.
 
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No it wouldn't make sense to someone that thinks the hopeful ending of TLJ is tonally consistent with the level of failure of the resistance in the movie.
1. Some olympic level dodging you've been doing avoiding all my points there!

2. Just because you keep repeating that doesn't make it true lol.

There have been some pretty damn great posts in this thread alone as to why it overall matches the themes and tones set throughout the movie. These posts also use evidence from the movies themselves, and other movies when necessary. So far the only thing you got in your quiver has been to make a claim, not back it up, and then try to back it up with stuff that literally goes against the points you were making earlier.
 
1. Some olympic level dodging you've been doing avoiding all my points there!

2. Just because you keep repeating that doesn't make it true lol.

There have been some pretty damn great posts in this thread alone as to why it overall matches the themes and tones set throughout the movie. These posts also use evidence from the movies themselves, and other movies when necessary. So far the only thing you got in your quiver has been to make a claim, not back it up, and then try to back it up with stuff that literally goes against the points you were making earlier.
Like I said, it was a "we won't even wait for the sequel reasure the audience that there's nothing to worry about" ending. At least the audience left feeling good. At any rate we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
Like I said, it was a "we won't even wait for the sequel reasure the audience that there's nothing to worry about" ending. At least the audience left feeling good. At any rate we'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm not sure that can be the case really when you refuse to actually address points, provide arguments, or generally not literally have opinions that are inconsistent and go against things you've literally said post per post, but sure if you have no actual intention of having a discussion (including the whole addressing and providing points thing) then sure lets end it here.
 
All of that was just to show that none of the other post prequel movies had anywhere near the level of abject failure that TLJ did. It was a "we won't even wait for the sequel reasure the audience that there's nothing to worry about" ending.
This is Star Wars, the good guys will always win in the end.

I mean, ESB ends with Lando saying "rendezvous at Jabba's palace, see you next movie folks!". Before the movie even ends you know Han is going to be rescued. SW has always balanced out the lowest moments with something hopeful.
 
T his is Star Wars, the good guys will always win in the end.

I mean, ESB ends with Lando saying "rendezvous at Jabba's palace, see you next movie folks!". Before the movie even ends you know Han is going to be rescued. SW has always balanced out the lowest moments with something hopeful.
Yeah, I should have known better than to expect an emotional pay off when they decided to go in such a dark direction. Rose not even looking back at her friends dying while she kissed Finn pretty much sums up how much anyone cared about the people that died for the resistance.
 
Yeah, I should have known better than to expect an emotional pay off when they decided to go in such a dark direction. Rose not even looking back at her friends dying while she kissed Finn pretty much sums up how much anyone cared about the people that died for the resistance.
The emotional payoff was the boy looking up at the stars at the end. They restored hope to the downtrodden people in the galaxy.
 
It's a celebration of "fake news". Luke did not, in fact, confront the FO. He didn't show up. He didn't risk his life (and this is what, I think, pushed RJ to make the effort of doing what he's doing kill him - he would come off as a coward otherwise). In order for this particular event to work as the trigger for hope to happen, you need people to be lied to; the news are factually fake. The kids on Canto Bight aren't playing pretend that Luke's astral projection is distracting the FO, they're convinced that the legendary guy the Resistance have been talking about for years as the hero who can tip the tides of war has actually come to the galaxy's rescue.

I'm quite mind boggled that RJ didn't see a problem with making Luke's legacy literally deceiving kids. It's not even exaggeration - we see it happen onscreen.
And it's not something that the movie conjures up at the end out of contrivance or poor writing. Luke foreshadows what everybody knows - he's no superweapon, he's not powerful enough to tackle the FO alone or to provide a significant aid in defeating them. In all honestly, all his legendary Jedi powers lent to the cause of the Resistance would probably pale next to what Holdo achieved.
But suddenly, at the end of a movie that is adamant about the effects of war on even good people, Luke projects himself to save Leia and somehow the movie spins this as a positive thing because this deception will lead people to believe Luke Skywalker has come to their rescue and they can throw themselves against the military might he was powerless to defeat.
Somehow TLJ ends up turning Luke Skywalker in the SW equivalent of Vassilj Zajcev and nobody has an issue with it. It's an absolutely dark twist and I comment RJ for having the guts to put it on film, but the way people dismiss it as "hope for everyone!" is mind boggling to me.
I don't know what to tell you at this point because you've been peddling this argument over and over and over and over and over again since the movie came out. You keep asking for responses, then ignoring them and repeating the question.

There is nothing fake about saying Luke confronted he FO or that he showed up or that he risked his life, because he did. Just not in the conventional, superhero, roundhouse kick to the face way that fucked the order up physically. And it's especially jarring to say he didn't risk his life while simultaneously acknowledging that his specific action of confronting the order is what killed him. And even if it hadn't, I wouldn't have viewed it as cowardice so much as cleverness since then Luke would have managed to save the Resistance without sacrificing any more lives, including his own.

But the meat of your concerns is the idea that Luke lets the galaxy think he is letting the galaxy think he is a superhero type who can kick ass and doesn't afraid of anything when in reality he could only confront the order through trickery that actually cost his life. And, in your mind, this is not a hopeful outcome, because mere trickery just delays destruction, it doesn't give you reason to believe that there is an actual chance at victory. Which is fine, both as a criticism or just raw reaction to the movie, because all it means is that your just kinda cynical. In fact, it's probably realistic to say that many also had a reaction like yours where if Luke doesn't kill atleast 100 walking tanks with his laser sword, then he's worthless to them.

But the thing that the people in the movie are celebrating is what happens when one person is brave enough to stand up to the FO. It makes them fail. They were here to destroy the last of the resistance and they had them and even the mere ghost of Luke walking up caused them to miss their victory. Luke is celebrated the way the man from Tienanmen Square is. Did the Tienanmen Square man stop China's fascism? Is he probably still alive today? No and no. But he is still remembered and iconified and celebrated as someone who was brave and righteous and giving people hope. And, thematically, hope is what the Last Jedi is about in a way few movies are, since we don't get the immediate satisfaction of our hope being rewarded. No, hope itself is the thing, because that's all the Resistance has to go on by the end of the movie, so damaged they are. Yet it's powerful, since it is spreading throughout the galaxy.

And now we have a new Jedi Knight, who is going to be where she needs to be and do what she needs to do to save the galaxy, like she was at the end of the movie, lifting rocks to open a path for the resistance. That's the message.

And this is all stuff that I and others have said before. Again and again, you keep wondering how people can 'celebrate fake news', but ignore the answers when someone tells you them. I don't see it as fake news at all. But you're free to, even if I think that's a very cynical take on things. But why do you keep asking if you don't want to hear the answers?
 
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This is Star Wars, the good guys will always win in the end.

I mean, ESB ends with Lando saying "rendezvous at Jabba's palace, see you next movie folks!". Before the movie even ends you know Han is going to be rescued. SW has always balanced out the lowest moments with something hopeful.
With regards to Han in RotJ, that's actually not true. Han's status was still to be decided, considering how hard Ford pushed for them to kill off Han in Jedi.

I can only assume he was being sarcastic, because that exactly sounds like the ending of Attack of the Clones and that was horrible.
 
With regards to Han in RotJ, that's actually not true. Han's status was still to be decided, considering how hard Ford pushed for them to kill off Han in Jedi.


I can only assume he was being sarcastic, because that exactly sounds like the ending of Attack of the Clones and that was horrible.
I'm pretty sure Han was always going to be rescued in ROTJ, he would have just sacrificed himself to aid the Rebellion during the DS2 attack (had Ford got his way).
 
I'm not sure that anyone other than Luke (and maybe Leia) knew he wasn't actually there...

Kylo was standing directly in front of him and didn't feel anything "off" about Luke. It wasn't until he realized it was literally impossible to hit him that he realized he wasn't actually there. That means, that as far as The Force was concerned, Luke felt like he was there...

Luke even manifested tangible objects people could touch... Meaning that he could even touch people when he wanted to.

The fact is Luke WAS there, in his most powerful form, and sacrificed himself doing so.
 
Heres something I don't see brought up a lot.

The ending of the TLJ, the idea of Luke becoming a legend, is literally the start of The Force Awakens.

Luke is already a myth. Rey, a scavenger isolated on this backwater desert planet has heard of him. He's already a legend. An unbelievable story about how he helped topple the Empire. He's already the thing he apparently becomes in TLJ ending.

What hope is the story in TLJ supposed to inspire....?

"Oh shit the First Order just fucking nuked the entire Senate star system... but its okay. There's a rumor going around that Luke Skywalker survived a bunch of AT ATs. Yeah. First Order aren't defeated, galaxy is still in their chokehold and theres no actual tangible positive consequences to his 'sacrifice' in this story or anything but yeah we're feeling hopeful because WHY

Is the legend a story about Luke Skywalker being killed by FO or Luke Skywalker beating the FO? Or escaping the FO? Whichever it is, the ending of the fucking story would not inspire hope because the First Order is still around. Right? Surely it'd inspire hopelessness that even Luke superpowersmcgee Skywalker couldn't defeat them? Right?!!
 
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I'm not sure that anyone other than Luke (and maybe Leia) knew he wasn't actually there...

Kylo was standing directly in front of him and didn't feel anything "off" about Luke. It wasn't until he realized it was literally impossible to hit him that he realized he wasn't actually there. That means, that as far as The Force was concerned, Luke felt like he was there...
Well yeah, Kylo and Rey thought they were really there when they first "projected" to each other. She tried to shoot him, they both ran out of their rooms trying to find each other and then he tried to use a mind trick on her before realising she wasn't really there. That whole scene was showing us how the Force can fool you into believing someone is right next to you when they are actually on the other side of the galaxy.

What hope is the story in TLJ supposed to inspire....?

"Oh shit the First Order just fucking nuked the entire Senate star system... but its okay. There's a rumor going around that Luke Skywalker survived a bunch of AT ATs. Yeah. First Order aren't defeated, galaxy is still in their chokehold and theres no actual tangible positive consequences to his 'sacrifice' in this story or anything but yeah we're feeling hopeful because WHY

Is the legend a story about Luke Skywalker being killed by FO or Luke Skywalker beating the FO? Or escaping the FO? Whichever it is, the ending of the fucking story would not inspire hope because the First Order is still around. Right? Surely it'd inspire hopelessness that even Luke superpowersmcgee Skywalker couldn't defeat them? Right?!!



Having the courage to stand up is enough to inspire people to fight back against the odds. People around the galaxy had lost hope, the Jedi were gone, Luke had vanished and the FO had destroyed the Republic. Leia's allies were too scared to stand up. Luke suddenly reappeared, stared down the First Order and saved the Resistance. Who wouldn't take hope from that? Luke saved the Resistance from annihilation using his magic powers.
 
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You had my attention until you started asking for detail on “how”. Shame as your points on the situation and the thematic cohesion of Luke’s actions are good.

“How” doesn’t mater. It’s irrelivent.

What matters is “is did”.

Luke has ignited a true spark of hope, literally in a new generation, he has set up the survival of the resistance and - somewhat accidentally - set up Rey to better take forward the Jedi principles and order.

He goes from being checked out due to failure to turning everything around , helped by Rey and the others in various ways of course, and achieves finality that concludes his character.

He’s passed on the torch and inspired the next generation.

Detail on the how the tale spread or what version spread really, really doesn’t matter. Ignore it OP it’s a wasted rabbit hole of investing critical energy into nothing.

The film in its closing moments gives you everything you need to know.
 
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